Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Points of views and questions about the OLPC project. What should it be? How could it be better? Where is it needed most? Ask your questions here and let your opinion be known.

Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby plym49 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:32 pm

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It seems that my laptop has a severe problem that even the gurus can't understand. They supposedly are working on a fix. We'll see.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby kentsin » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:00 pm

> It is just window

NO NO NO

I have these for many years. I hate windows and I hate RTFM moe!

MS block users from informative actions and GOD developer block users from ALL.

Yes, we all did for satifaction, MS did it for money, and OSS did it for fun. As they say, fun is just for their own, most developer do not care for the users. The users, who do not have educcation with IT and those educated but without talent, were just got BAD luck.

All hackers rejoice, they have the world. The create the whole world and got front page coverage every now and then, they enjoy manipulate people's feeling and experience.

If OLPC is a education project, the student, how they work, why they benefit, what they need, is prior than the OLPC team is get on press.

XO-1 may just a pilot project, but sending out incomplete, unfinished products to end-users even they are not paying for it is unmortal in anymeans.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby jojoheff » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:30 pm

Hello,


Anyone out there been successful in getting them to answer the phone?

I have lost my return receipt from ups and can't anyone to answer the phone. I need my $$ refunded.

jojo
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby Peter6218 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:20 pm

Seriously, the issues I described speak to something else, so read my post again if you must. This is a Windows/Mac world, and every child who has been exposed to a computer to date has seen that type of UI. To provide something else, that is ostensibly intended for a child, without any sort of a help guide is surprisingly naive, or perhaps arrogant. You figured it out - so did I - hooray for adults. That is not the point.


I echo all your comments. Plus when you allow professional educators to influence what you are doing instead of actually allowing children to work with prototypes you are guaranteed a disaster.

From a Negroponte interview on CNN:

"You mean the pedagogic theories of self-instruction embodied in the XO software? Yes. In fact in 1991 a Peruvian educator visited me at the MIT media lab and I introduced him to Seymour [Papert, the educational researcher who has been deeply involved in OLPC], and he was very taken with Seymour's theories. So he went back and sent several people to the U.S. to study those theories. They went back to Peru in the early 90s, and this man who started that work has recently become the Minister of Education. And several of the people he sent to the US are in the ministry working with him. "


And that only confirms my statement that OLPC had succumbed to the "Professional educators" and their Ivory Tower ideas.

At this point in time there are only two general purpose OS's out there, Windows and Mac. Yes I know Linux exists and in fact I use it. But as a viable, world usable OS it leaves a lot to be desired, not least in the matter of installing additional software. So why not a version of something the child is going to see and use if they ever leave their remote habitat? I mean isn't that the point of education?? To allow them to gravitate to a better life??
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby doug » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:22 pm

Peter6218 wrote:At this point in time there are only two general purpose OS's out there, Windows and Mac. Yes I know Linux exists and in fact I use it. But as a viable, world usable OS it leaves a lot to be desired, not least in the matter of installing additional software. So why not a version of something the child is going to see and use if they ever leave their remote habitat? I mean isn't that the point of education?? To allow them to gravitate to a better life??


First of all, the way you speak of Windows and Mac is more to their user interface/desktop and not the operating systems they are built on. Did you know that the actually OS on the Mac is UNIX or more correctly BSD UNIX? Linux is a form of UNIX in that it was built from the design specifications for UNIX. So you are really talking about a user interface and not the OS. What is 'under' the user interface, the OS, is only important if it fails to provide the required features for the user interface of the device or adds to much to the cost of the device. UNIX based systems, Linux, fits the needs of the XO very nicely. Did you know that Linux is also the OS in Tivo? That user interface is quite easy to use and has done very well for them and their customers. There are quite a few other devices which use Linux and many of them you use daily but don't even know it. It is not about the OS under the hood.

So, now that we know we are really talking about the user interface and not the operating system, it seems that you think kids should be learning a user interface instead of actual basic school curriculum. Is it really that important for a child to learn that there are many many ways to create and save a text document on Windows and each one looks different? FileSave, FileSaveAs, FileNew and desktop icon based file creation are all a waste of time for a child, or a teacher for that matter, trying to learn or teach how to put a sentence together. What the developers of the Sugar user interface are trying to do is get all that stuff out of the way so kids can easily get to the tasks for learning. And that means the XO Activities/applications. And it is not going to be a disadvantage when these kids grow up and find themselves in front of a Windows, Mac, or even Linux desktop computer, each with their own unique desktop user interfaces. It is even very likely that they will come across this well before the days when they are of age for employment and they'll already have the skills to learn the things required to make efficient use of them. They will have the educational background to learn those, now simple skills. That should not be very difficult for them to do or else they have failed to learn how to learn. They surely will not be afraid to try and figure things out if no one is there to teach them. And they will not be at a disadvantage compared to kids who had to spend most of their education with Windows based computers learning about all the different ways Microsoft decided you should have to save a file instead of the "Three R's". Believe it or not but Microsoft dictates what the user interface on Windows based computers are and no computer reseller is allowed to change that before the computer is turned on for the first time. Atleast the Apple people seem to have a better understanding of ease-of-use but that is getting off the subject which is learning to learn and a device which enables that.

It is time to move on from the Linux / Windows debate. It is a UI debate at best and the extra hardware requirements and licensing costs Windows brings to the table increases the device cost which means fewer devices for fewer kids. Help by discussing the applications and forget about the underlying operating system or how the applications are started because that is not what it is all about. It's about a tool for learning and only a very little about learning what a mouse pointer is and other 'computer-isms'. Think of this is a Speak-N-Spell on steroids and leave your Windows, Mac, or Linux desktop habits behind. Realize this is for learning to learn, not learning to click a sequence of buttons on a familiar desktop computer UI, they can and will learn that far far better than many adults today can or ever will.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby Peter6218 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:27 pm

Pedagogic piffle

And irrelevant
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby Peter6218 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:07 pm

OK all lets get one thing clear.

Over the history of computing there have been many, many operating systems. The first I encountered was Dartmouth Basic and a side of assembler.

Anybody remember OS2 ??

Then there was Sinclair Basic. Whatever they called Apple II's OS. All of these were evolutionary. And of course many variations on DOS.

Then we got into the Windows world with 3.1. At which point everything changed. With the arrival of Win95 the GUI was set. Now like it or lump it the World Standard for GUI is Windows.

Suddenly OLPC says it is NOT satisfactory. Hello ?? Every other OS out there tries its best to emulate Windows. Like it or lump it when one OS has 90% of the Worlds installed base it SETS the standards!!

So buck it at your peril. But there is more to a GUI than just the interface. It also sets the standards for a whole raft of other functions, from installability to video interface to game playing.

So Linux and all the other OS's have to play catch up. Some do it a lot better than others. But NONE perform like Windows.

We put up with minor inconveniences to get other, different benefits. But OLPC made some real, clear errors in their approach. And that is what is causing the disappointment and delusion. Like it or lump it the OS in the OLPC sucks big time!
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby brisalta » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:09 am

Peter6218 wrote:OK all lets get one thing clear.

Over the history of computing there have been many, many operating systems. The first I encountered was Dartmouth Basic and a side of assembler.

Anybody remember OS2 ??

Then there was Sinclair Basic. Whatever they called Apple II's OS. All of these were evolutionary. And of course many variations on DOS.

Then we got into the Windows world with 3.1. At which point everything changed. With the arrival of Win95 the GUI was set. Now like it or lump it the World Standard for GUI is Windows.

Suddenly OLPC says it is NOT satisfactory. Hello ?? Every other OS out there tries its best to emulate Windows. Like it or lump it when one OS has 90% of the Worlds installed base it SETS the
standards!!

So buck it at your peril. But there is more to a GUI than just the interface. It also sets the standards for a whole raft of other functions, from installability to video interface to game playing.

So Linux and all the other OS's have to play catch up. Some do it a lot better than others. But NONE perform like Windows.

We put up with minor inconveniences to get other, different benefits. But OLPC made some real, clear errors in their approach. And that is what is causing the disappointment and delusion. Like it or lump it the OS in the OLPC sucks big time!


What an incoherent bit of rambling. I assume you mean when you say none perform like Windows you mean none are as unrealiable and dififcult to install. I have installed many different OSs ranging from DOS of various flavors, VINES, Netware, Linux, Solaris, GEOS, OS/2, penpoint, etc and none have been as flakey as installing Windows. Yes I remember OS/2 and it still is available :- http://www.ecomstation.com/ The Workplace Shell is one of those insanely great ideas that got ignored because of FUD.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby Peter6218 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:22 am

What an incoherent bit of rambling. I assume you mean when you say none perform like Windows you mean none are as unrealiable and dififcult to install.


Now for incoherence that really does surpass understanding, not including the spelling errors.

Windows is the GUI standard you twit !! I also said it is the standard for operational activities.

I did NOT say it is the best OS although in many ways it is. At least up through XP. Vista is another discussion.

Because of that 90% base every other contender HAS to emulate Windows. Try and be a different GUI and you die rapidly. Precisely as the OLPC is.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby brisalta » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:34 am

Peter6218 wrote:

Now for incoherence that really does surpass understanding, not including the spelling errors.

Windows is the GUI standard you twit !! I also said it is the standard for operational activities.

I did NOT say it is the best OS although in many ways it is. At least up through XP. Vista is another discussion.

Because of that 90% base every other contender HAS to emulate Windows. Try and be a different GUI and you die rapidly. Precisely as the OLPC is.


Your just twisting in the wind Peter6128. Windows is not the GUI standard, There are many other GUIs than Windows out there and used by far more people. I am not going to help enumerate them to you as you are too unintelligent to understand. Your nothing more than an ignorant shill for Microsoft and a troll. I am not going to feed you again.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby Peter6218 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:43 am

Your just twisting in the wind Peter6128. Windows is not the GUI standard, There are many other GUIs than Windows out there and used by far more people. I am not going to help enumerate them to you as you are too unintelligent to understand. Your nothing more than an ignorant shill for Microsoft and a troll. I am not going to feed you again.


Actually the real lack of intelligence here is your demonstration.

GUI = Graphical User Interface.

Not a damned thing to do with OS, twit.

Windows is the WORLD standard.

Why do you think Ubuntu has put so much effort into their GUI to get it to look and function like Windows. You really are a supreme ignoramus !!
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby brisalta » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:04 pm

I said I would not feed the troll but I will respond just once more for fun. I know what a GUI is. I have used more than you know even exist.

If you go by pure number of users than Windows is definitely not the dominant GUI. But then you have already established by your response that you are not intelligent enough to understand, or observe that fact from the world around you. You should get out of your mother's basement some time.

Ubuntu is not a particularly good Linux distribution. Just a lot of self promotion by Shuttleworth. There are far batter and easier to install distributions of LInux than Ubuntu.

Enough of this as I have to get back to work helping to develop the next great thing in software.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby Peter6218 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:09 pm

If you go by pure number of users than Windows is definitely not the dominant GUI.


Microsoft has 90% od the worlds installed software.

You really, really are an idiot and a denier!!

Time for your meds again.

Why do you think Negroponte is switching to XP??

Too damned many problems with the XO's current Linux is why?? Major sales resistance!!
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby doug » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:55 pm

Peter6218 wrote:
If you go by pure number of users than Windows is definitely not the dominant GUI.


Microsoft has 90% od the worlds installed software.

You really can't think outside the box it seems. Did you know that the percentage you stated was related only to desktop computers? What you don't seem to realize is that the number of devices with UI's such as Tivo's, GPS's, mobile phones, handheld computers, VIOP phones, etc far far outnumber the single digit percentage Microsoft has for its GUI on these computing devices. You also seem to be fixated on the idea that because the word "laptop" is in the name of the organization that this device is supposed to act like the "laptop" device you are familiar with and that every kid in the world should spend their first few years of learning spent on learning one of the clunky Microsoft Windows UI's. Interestingly you do specify that the last one( Windows XP ) is better than the latest one( Windows Vista ). Go figure.

Why do you think Negroponte is switching to XP??

Because he thinks he is saving the project by taking funding from Microsoft or better yet, he realizes that Microsoft and Intel can outspend him and purchase his customers as they have already proven they are willing to do. That is right, Intel and Microsoft have gone around to the same customers OLPC has MOU's from and offered them millions in incentives to not use the OLPC device. Well, really they paid them to use Intel's Classmate PC device since just paying them to not use the XO would leave them with nothing and that does not look good to the people of that country or in the US press. Negroponte is making a mistake since Microsoft nor Intel have little interest in building markets as the OLPC would do since that is very costly and risky. They just want the OLPC AMD/Linux project to go away so they can continue charging profit setting prices on product used by these countries as the mature at their own rate. Just like Microsofts reaction to the Thai governments low cost laptop program a few years ago which saw Linux and OSS loaded laptops selling like peanuts at the zoo, Microsoft could not allow this and came out with a crippled Windows XP, called it Starter Edition, charged them $5 for it, and then helped funnel millions to the Thai government to make it really worth their while. Negroponte can't do that unless Google really steps up to the plate and drops millions into the OLPC project. Nobody else on this non-profits board has the funds to go up against Microsoft and Intel in this.

Too damned many problems with the XO's current Linux is why?? Major sales resistance!!

The sales resistance is do to what I stated above, not because of Linux or Sugar. Read up on the articles on why OLPC pretty much forced Intel out of the project. They had hard evidence of Intel's people attacking OLPC customers for sales of Classmate PC's. As far as there being too many problems with Linux on the XO, those are addressable and under OLPC control. By going with Windows XP, not only do they lose control of the hardware/OS interaction, they lose the ability to simplify the UI for the target audience they also burden anyone who wants to develop for the project with costly and every changing( adds more cost ) development tools for Windows. They also cut out the open source developers who have shown to already be willing to create software for free. How many and for how long will any Windows developer assist the OLPC project with free software for the XO?

IMO, could very well be much like how Microsoft achieved standardization of their OOXML office file format and with similar results. They flooded the committees with Microsoft partners who only voted on the OOXML item and then left the ISO committees to stall all other projects because requires percentages of voting committee members are not being met. Microsoft paid many of these partners to join the ISO to pass OOXML and then they ignored their duties as ISO members and ISO is stalling. Microsoft will do the same with the OLPC if they indeed induce OLPC to 'partner' with them.

And it is just plain naive to think that every device must have a UI which looks like the UI of the month from Microsoft. Believe it or not, 90% of their UI choices are not to make customer lives easier, it is to lock in customers to Microsoft software and lock out other vendors. I doubt if you remember pre-Windows 95 but back then, computer resellers had the legal ability to customize the desktop for their customers. After 1995, Microsoft requires no changes to the default Microsoft desktop on initial boot. That is one of the reasons keyboard started coming out with so many "extra" keys as vendors tried to enable customizations via special function keyboard keys.

The OLPC XO is not the nail for the Windows hammer you seem to have a firm grip on.
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Re: Disappointments Abound - Is the Writing on the Wall?

Postby Peter6218 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:04 pm

The sales resistance is do to what I stated above, not because of Linux or Sugar. Read up on the articles on why OLPC pretty much forced Intel out of the project.


Your stupidity just keeps demonstrating itself.

Why are Intel and Microsoft in business? Ask yourself that and you have shot your entire argument down.

They are in business to MAKE money. Microsoft has proven over the years its ability to use any and all means to destroy competition as has Intel.

You are an even bigger idiot than I thought!!
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